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The Senate Committee on Education met on March 25th. This report covers discussions on SB 28. A video of the hearing can be found here.

This report is intended to give you an overview and highlight of the discussions on the various topics the committee took up. It is not a verbatim transcript of the hearing but is based upon what was audible or understandable to the observer and the desire to get details out as quickly as possible with few errors or omissions.

SB 28 (Bettencourt) Relating to the approval of open-enrollment charter schools and the applicability of certain state and local laws to open-enrollment charter schools.

  • Bettencourt laid out his bill
  • Charters schools are serving increasing number of students across the state, but barriers remain impeding the establishment of new charter schools to keep up with growing needs of Texas families
  • Certain exemptions for public school are not extending to charters such as greenspace, fees waived, approval process wrought with further obstacles such as SBOE retains veto standards
  • SB 28 the charter school equity act requires equal treatment
  • Final authority of location remains with TEA and local government may not prohibit
  • Going wrong way with public charters, and by and large they are a success and don’t need to be refighting a bill over each year which is what is happening with SBOE
  • Some local municipalities putting pressure on charters which is clearly not equitable
  • Listening to everyone, very disturb by stories of what is being layered onto Charter schools but also need to look at governance of them
  • Hall – in principle absolutely right, hearing about local government interference with charters and we know they make a significant contribution toward educating our children
  • Hall – why do we think a single person brings more equity to applications vs SBOE members, for example of SBOE recent veto thought it was a legitimate reason to reject a school’s application if they are teaching common core
    • Original concept was a depoliticization decision made by legislature 26 years ago
    • Multiple solutions here to be discussed
    • Need to consider best governance option so he is listening
    • Hall issues caution when putting one person in power
  • Perry – SBOE is reflected from statewide, but suggests vote needs to be supermajority; nothing against Commissioner but it is still the people’s connection
    • Thinks a Supermajority is an interesting idea
  • West – anyone here from SBOE
    • Taylor – yes, will be the first witness
  • Powell – agrees danger in putting too much authority into an elected position, have expanded role of Commissioner in work did with HB 3 and not sure this matter should be taken out of hands of SBOE
  • Powell – wants to speak to zoning laws, when at public school and had expansion of facilities they worked hand and hand with the community and it was to benefit of taxpayer that they went together; zoning laws are in place for good reasons

Tom Maynard, SBOE – on

  • Focus on removal of veto authority
  • This is the only time when elected body has a public meeting and takes public input during the initial application process
  • Process changes a lot in 2013, at one-point SBOE managed all parts but with SB 2 it took out SBOE and left them with just veto authority
  • Charters that have unsuccessful applications come back and are successful; may net 4 total over period of time since they have veto authority
  • Taylor – reading of bill what would you have with bill language?
    • Have not had a chance to read bill
    • Would not have veto ability
  • Menendez – how many vetoes over time? 7 out of 41 approved
    • 7 vetoes out of 41 sent to SBOE
  • Taylor – Commissioner approved 18% of applications and sent 41 to SBOE with 7 vetoes
    • Bettencourt – very rigorous process already in place
  • West – How can we improve the process?
    • When we do textbook review, we get a criterion but there is nothing in statute that tells why you would reject an applicant, more guidelines and data would be helpful
    • In last process had a lot of testifiers raise concerns about fiscal note
    • Charters funded at higher rate because they don’t have a tax payer base, but felt that was not their decision to make
    • Agency has directed a common application but not electronic
    • How many students on waiting list, where are they and how many are duplicates
  • Menendez – does 41 include expansions? There are more when you include expansions
    • Yes, 41 is just new charter applications

Break while they went Senate Floor

Bettencourt – did note a committee substitute is in the works

Mike Waldrip, Frisco ISD Superintendent

  • 170 charter operators in the state and much more capacity than student need
  • Current law does not hinder charter expansion
  • Body of elected officials (SBOE) saw a problem and was able to stop it
  • Bettencourt – talked to SBOE and will look at changing section to a super majority veto
  • Broke down fiscal impact of charters
  • Handout shown on efficiencies of isd vs charters
  • Impact on taxpayers – charter schools able to issue bonds without any taxpayer input and they have issued $30 million in bond debt
  • Taylor – so who pays for that?
    • Money from state, believes some of their recapture dollars go back to the state to help pay for that bond debt
  • Taylor – why do you think 1,800 students going to charter? Not doing good job of marketing?
    • Its $13 million
    • Impact means they have to reduce expenditures for remaining students
  • Taylor – when you say inequities in oversight?
    • We are scrutinized when we go out with a bond
    • No type of oversight or local taxpayer oversight on bonds issued by charters
  • Taylor – Frisco charter has less funding
    • It all comes from the state
    • Taylor – it is a pretty involved formula
  • Have an elected board and need to go to taxpayers to ask for ability to bond but not case with the charters
  • Comparatively showing state wide average and Frisco ISD own performance in handout to committee
  • Taylor – appreciated it not being a book
  • Powell – when you go out for a bond election who owns buildings? What about for charters?
    • Taxpayers
    • Not sure, what is oversight
  • Powell – who owns charter school?
    • Does not know
  • Powell – do you advertise on the Super Bowl?
    • No but I know a lot of charters do
  • Paxton – Frisco ISD is one of best districts in the U.S., why people make choices have a lot of reasons; want you to be funded for kids who pick Frisco ISD but if someone else picks private or homeschool it is their choice
  • Paxton – whether others are being funded does not matter as much to her as opposed to if Frisco is funded
    • Completely agree, but point is if they keep adding charters and keep chipping away at funding they will have to reduce teachers/programs and spending
    • It will chip away until it impacts students that are left in the system
  • Paxton – just don’t want someone else to not have it, want schools to have what they need to educate
    • Until enough move away to charter schools and we can’t afford
    • Taylor – why do you think they will all go to charters
    • Don’t concede it, but don’t want to spend money on a marketing campaign would rather spend that on a student
  • Taylor – less than 3% have chosen something different, talking about revenue loss but you include local share…why?
    • When we lose student we lose the funding, believes we lose all $7300 when we lose the student
  • Paxton – but you don’t have to educate that student
    • But we can’t reduce expense enough to make up for losses
  • Bettencourt – have stratified marketing in the state, have home schools, private, public and charter and would summarize you should be the best you can be; 4 markets is not going to change for the foreseeable future
  • West – more capacity in charter school than demand?
    • Listed references in handout
    • Data compiled by TEA under footnote 6
  • West – Sen. Bettencourt has come up with agreement with SBOE to take up a supermajority, do you understand process?
    • Not an expert, do know Commissioner makes recommendations and SBOE debated it for several hours and voted against them
    • He was in contact about some of those charter schools
  • West – are you ok with Supermajority or just a majority?
    • Would like to see the whole proposal
    • Not sure why it would require a supermajority
    • West – thinks it should be majority
  • West – do you know of any district that approves construction that requires a supermajority?
    • Does not
  • West – perhaps treating public school different from charters with supermajority vs majority
    • Believes that is the case in several instances
  • West – had votes to kill charters at that time but supported what it was purported to do
  • West – want to cut off cities ability to plan appropriately, ironic that most charter or in minority districts which he really has problems with
  • Hall – can’t think of charter school he has talked to who has talked about their backlog of students, why do fewer students get poorer education why if you take one student away it impacts the others?
    • 42 elementary students example; couldn’t get rid of teacher or nurse so no cost to reduce if 4-5 students left
    • So, reduction in funding yet couldn’t reduce expenditures district wide
  • Hall – no one is forced to go to charter, they choose for a reason; whole economy is based on freedom of choice
  • Hall – money goes out year over year and what are we going to do to improve outcomes
    • Want to maintain outcomes we have
    • If we chip away at funding then not able to provide services
    • Been told numerous times that charters are for low performing, did not know reason for all choice
  • Taylor – have you heard about HB 3 funding
    • Yes, trying to provide an example of what happens when lose funding
    • Taylor – very frustrating to hear someone from a very good school district talk about chipping away funding
    • Not asking for more money
  • Menendez – looking at page of TEA 2020 charter waitlist report, says some don’t have a waitlist; trying to build an education system with taxpayer dollars but hearing it sounds like putting a parallel education next to performing one
  • Menendez – hear there are charters within two blocks of elementary schools, do you have that?
    • One is located in a church and the other in a warehouse district
  • Menendez – once charter is approved it is easy to expand
    • Does not think it is difficult process to add a campus and expand
  • West – hopefully TEA has handout and said look at footnote 6 and if report accurately reflects capacity in charter when we have always said 140,000 on waitlist but sounds like 240,000 open seats
  • Taylor- could have capacity spread out, looking at statewide
  • West – then would say same things about waitlist
    • Taylor – it may be in particular areas
    • West – that is my point, we say in the state but not what area
  • West – if information is correct, when we say there is a 140k on the waitlist it’s a statewide number, then we should also say there are 240k open seats
  • Taylor – your comparing statewide performance to charters but not comparing apples to apples, by the way charters are public schools
  • West – do you have an agreement with SBOE
    • Working with SBOE and have compromised language with committee substitute

Starlee Coleman, Texas Public Charter School Association – support

  • May need broader conversation about charter school issues
  • Regarding wait list, last session passed a bill for student’s names to be sent to TEA and produce a de-duplicated list
  • 55k individual students waiting, 552 individual campuses have waiting list 2/3
  • When a charter is approved by SBOE the long-term potential for campus is asked for
  • Charter schools cannot expand unless they are highly rated
  • Achievement gap is less with charters
  • Taylor – would like that detail sent to committee
  • Menendez – $1.2 billion spent in revenue and a total of 56 African American students
    • Simply not possible
  • Menendez – easy to say gap is smaller if you don’t have many minorities
    • Serve higher percentage of low income
    • Don’t know who handpicked for that chart but that is not accurate
  • White black achievement gap in Frisco is 22 points, it might be a great district for White kids
  • At charter schools for Hispanic students, Hispanic students are outperforming white students
  • They have actually reversed it, argues similar results for African American students
  • Regarding question of who owns charter schools buildings, bill last session clarified in statute that is taxpayers spend $1 on building it is state property
  • Charter schools are holding property for state while it is a charter school, cleared up in legal cases and a statute
  • Districts that have charters within attendance zones are improving more quickly than those that don’t have one
  • Argues bill does not get charters out of zoning issues, just applies zoning to ALL public schools
  • Process in Texas for Charters has gotten rigorous and want that but SBOE provision has not kept pace
  • Menendez – how do you feel about charters across the street from traditional schools? Seems like we are asking taxpayers to pay for multiple
    • Just one public school system, maybe there is a reason or specialty served
    • Don’t think schools being next to each other are inherently a problem
    • Menendez – think it seems redundant to some extent
  • Menendez – stats he mentioned earlier were from TAPR report
    • But why were those schools picked?
    • Was point some charters don’t have many black kids, some ISDs don’t have many black kids
    • Charters are much more diverse than ISDs overall state wide
  • Menendez – asking TEA for apples to apples comparison of diversity; include in its special education and homeless, etc.
    • 20% of students black and 12% at ISDs
    • ELL is about 10% higher at Charter
    • Low income population is higher about 65% vs ISDs 53%
    • Special ed students, delta is reversed and after analyzing it they found special need population looks same to similar size ISDs
    • Have charters in Texas specifically designed for homeless students and locate near shelters
    • All special education laws apply to ISDs and charters exactly the same
  • Menendez – how do you address free and reduced lunch?
    • Set own policy just like ISDs, schools will do varying things such as having sack lunches etc.
    • Menendez – personal example of needing $5 for lunches and no transportation
    • ISDs and Charters have same requirement on transportation
  • Menendez – how many charters are under alternative accountability
    • Drop out recovery schools use alternative so it will look different, about 30k kids have previously dropped out of HS

Leo Lopez, Texas Education Agency

  • Taylor – when a student leaves a district like Frisco, a recapture district, do they still retain $6k they raised locally?
    • Entitlement is calculated for all students, student leaving would reduce entitlement or recapture would increase
    • Taylor – but they are still keeping a bulk of it?
    • They may have golden pennies and they would keep all of that regardless
  • Taylor – if districts spends $7300 per student and $1300 from state and $6k locally, if student leaves the $6k in local money is still there?
    • It does not change tax collection but it changes the relationships
    • Changing student count would change the entitlement
  • Taylor – that money will be there for the district, overall not losing bulk of $6k?
    • Presumably with student leaving they would have reduced instructional cost as well
    • Taylor – they were losing $1,300 in state and it may go up a bit for recapture but bulk of that $6k is lost its just they have fewer students to spend it on…they are losing state portion
  • Menendez – funds are based on annual enrollment?
    • Taylor – agrees and number may move around a bit but bulk of local will stay in the district
  • Menendez – but you sign a teacher up, your fixed cost stays fixed; what % of students once left charter go back to ISD?
    • TEA should have that information, will follow up on this
  • Menendez – heard from some they go into the charter system and then come back to ISD and take a STAAR and ISD gets dinged for low score so there is a frustration

Heather Mauze, Texas Education Agency

  • Difference of about 11k students transferring on annual basis
  • Taylor – some charters go up to only a certain grade
    • Some charters serve entire grade span where others serve different grade span
  • Menendez – districts lose entitlement and overall funding when a student leaves? Will turn this question in for a write up
  • Bettencourt – numbers are write and please to see TEA and Coleman’s numbers are matching up, shows system is working
  • Menendez – where do we have guardrails, what is right size of two public schools systems funded by tax payers and at what point do you get out of whack and overbuild?
    • Taylor – is someone wants to build a charter and no one wants to go there you have a problem
  • Bettencourt – why we passed P3 legislation so people can work together to fill it back up
  • Powell – one small school district with 2,500 students in one week they were noticed by 7 different charter schools wanting to come into that ISD, that size of community cannot come in with competition; at what point do we manage the market?
    • Taylor – thinks that is a good question, how far along in the process of they are in getting the charter but will have some unhappy charters as they will open doors and students will not be there

Hope Wells, San Antonio Water System – on

  • Don’t have issue with intent, only concern is from utility perspective on impact fees
  • Any exemption means the fees will be spread out to rate payers
  • ISDs are mandated to build and serve in specific locations vs charters choose location according to business model
  • ISDs are built as stand-alone vs charter shares space with other commercial building
  • Working with charter school association on possible language
  • Menendez – asked about fee concern
    • Working on language with bill author
  • Taylor – do ISDs pay impact fees?
    • They were exempted in 2007 because they had no choice but to build to meet growth where charter does not have to because they can make decision about where to grow
    • Also, in commercial structure/mixed development makes it different
  • Taylor – thinks if charter already in area then impact fee would have already been paid?
    • Depends on situation, may need more retail or need to increase capacity
    • Taylor – have you seen that type of situation?
    • Believes so
  • Bettencourt – don’t really understand that point
  • Taylor – wasn’t charge already paid in a multi-use center
    • Can get more details to the committee on this concern
  • Bettencourt – really need apples to apples, charters more leased than build to own
    • Will find out more and as they work with charter association, they will reach out to them

Dr. Jamie Wilson, Superintendent for Denton ISD – opposition

  • In opposition for not having veto from SBOE
  • Any way to offer feedback is through SBOE but doesn’t think it’s necessary so no supermajority requirement for anything
  • Bettencourt – we do for raising taxes, 60%
  • Impact fees concern, have built 11 schools and 17 different municipalities they have to work with them on each one on impacts and all have different guidelines and requirements
  • When you start to exclude people from requirements you remove transparency and take away oversight
  • Thanks everyone for work on HB 3, main thing was dollars went where needed for most needy students
  • If creating entitlement in area where students are doing well then taking away opportunity
  • They are funded on ADA, when a student leaves local and state share go so state share is reduced by amount so it’s an ADA piece
  • Formula does not work the way Taylor described it earlier, formula goes with student
  • In a recapture district you get hit twice, overall funding goes down and recapture goes up
  • When a student walks out door the revenue leaves with them and expenses do not decrease
  • Therefore, funding two systems in the state but is it necessary
    • Taylor – yes, we are funding two systems for choice, whether student is struggling or needing choice
  • Menendez – do you have any magnet? Do you have an advertising budget?
    • IB but don’t go out and draw them in
    • Can’t take dollars for advertising need to put in classroom
    • Taylor – plenty of free press, no problem getting out great story in the paper
  • Menendez – but charters are buying advertising and putting up billboards
    • We are going to tell our story but not buy an ad in the newspaper or send flyers
    • Not going to spend dollars out of instructional funding, which is what he believes was the charge in HB 3
    • Commitment to the learner who needs it the most
    • When we all have to pay for school choice, it takes away dollars from those who need it the most
  • Taylor – parent is paying same taxes?
    • Yes, everyone paying same tax, but what is greater good of the community
  • Hall – Your example is half a story, your revenue goes up but your cost of education doesn’t go up, what do you have to say about this?
    • You are correct, this is based off of revenue forecasting
  • Hall – So when your projection is less than what your student body increases by, you get extra revenue with no costs?
    • That isn’t necessarily correct, we have to add teachers
  • Hall – You planned to leave short say 3 students of the level so you take advantage of this by adding up to 3 students?
    • We build our schools based upon ADA, it is a planning situation when schools don’t show up like they did during Covid-19
  • Perry – The fixed cost element effects your ability to maintain standards, but the bill does not ask for any extra provisions for charter schools, it’s the same application. Secondly, Charters don’t have football teams for advertisement, we all have different forms of advertisement and you fit yourself into that equation. Supermajority provides opportunity for a different makeup of the board.
  • Menendez – To have a supermajority would be to veto, not to come to an agreement?
  • Perry – It is important for someone not be run over from a minority perspective.
  • Menendez – Seems like there is a separate set of rules using the same tax paying dollars.
  • Perry – It ascertains the idea that if I think my students need to be in a different environment then they can do that, Charter schools accommodate children different from the public school environment and provide a path out
  • Bettencourt – Did your district become one of innovation?
    • Yes
  • Bettencourt – Do you have the opportunity to do anything?
    • Whatever our community values
  • Bettencourt – That is what you decided to pursue?
    • We came to that consensus
  • Bettencourt – There is a tremendous amount flexibility?
    • With the exception of school first writing that shows where we spend our money
  • Bettencourt – We need to get back to where Charter schools will be given the exact same measurement, your decision to go to innovation is just a part of people making choices, we want Charters to have this option as well.

Jennifer Key, Trustee with Alief ISD

  • The difference between a locally elected school board and not having elected leaders of Charter School changes the perception and transparency
  • One person shouldn’t have the authority to make decisions involving Charter school expansion
  • Charter Schools new and old need to go through process
  • The most important stakeholders are the children
  • Charter schools can become tool of segregation
  • Removes local control, need representation
  • Big money and privatization can muddy the waters

Eddie Conger, Founder and Superintendent of International Leadership of Texas – For

  • 33 campuses
  • 62% low-socioeconomic and majority minority campuses
  • Students study both Spanish and Chinese
  • Students are advancing to Ivy League schools at great rates
  • Roadblock to parents choosing to send their students to our schools are zoning and city councils
  • The students need to be prioritized over the system
  • Taylor – You think you were treated unfairly on a decision lately?
    • Denied the opportunity to build a major project
  • Perry – What is your rating?
    • We are in the mid 80s
  • Perry – Some kids go back to public school, how many?
    • I don’t have the statistics in front of me
  • Perry – Are you required to take in every kid?
    • Yes, if there is enough room
  • Perry – The language coursework is rigorous?
    • Yes
  • Perry – If you had more statistics that would be great

Emily Sass, Policy Director at the Texas Public Policy Foundation – For

  • Charter schools in proximity to public schools increases public school performance
  • Charter and ISD are classified as local education agencies
  • Texas Education Code already provides for equal treatment
  • Different zoning requirements require some locations to apply for a special permit
  • Bettencourt – Am I missing your point regarding equal treatment?
    • No, it makes sense to require municipalities to observe this

Ann Williams, President of Texas Black Caucus of School Board Members – Against

  • Single individual could override taxpayers
  • Charter expansions need to go through the state school board
  • Recent data shows that over a billion dollars in revenue were given to nine charters, only 60 black students graduated
  • Taylor – Was the data over a period of time?
    • Since 2017
  • Taylor – Some charters don’t have graduation, so that would skew the data

Dr. Darlene Breaux, Vice President of Alief ISD School Board – Against

  • Takes decision making away from elected officials
  • Charter decisions made by self-selected board members who often don’t reside in community
  • Accountability matters

David Bradley, State Board of Education – For

  • Oversaw beginning of process, 13 charter schools to this day
  • Favorable and supportive officials, needs to be accountability factor to make sure a good job is done
  • Bettencourt wants Supermajority, something similar to this would be great
  • Charter schools confirmed with elected state legislature
  • Suggests guardrails to charter school process, limit debate to substantive issues regarding efficiency, not opinions
  • Taylor – Does this feel similar?
    • Yes
  • Taylor – Veto power in guardrails would be great is what you are suggesting?
    • Yes
  • Taylor – Agreed, Charters need to know what they are getting into, not the political will of that day
    • Absolutely
  • Impact statements required in Charter application
  • Bob Hope came to us for a Charter only asking for 50 students, dealt with physical disabilities
  • Public district would not provide for them, asked for 250 instead
  • Campus had 1200 students 5 years later in a majority minority district, 90% Hispanic
  • Menendez – The black community doesn’t have interest in that Charter school?
    • Apparently not at this location
  • Menendez – Bob Hope only received $21.9 million whereas other districts like IDEA received way more with little amounts of graduates
    • I won’t speak for them

Sarah Landsman, Yes Prep Public Schools in Houston – For

  • Not asking for special provisions, wants parity
  • Have about 16,000 kids, most are at an economic disadvantage
  • Houston Public Works is asking them to follow sign procedures for business advertisements instead of public schools, appeal was denied
  • Charters deal with this red tape all the time
  • Would allow us to refocus energy back on students
  • Perry – I want to know the performance data if this is an improvement that Charters bring to the table
  • Hall – I would like to see the Charter Readiness data as well
  • Powell – I want to see the same measurement standards applied to both and have access to data benchmarks
  • Bettencourt – Charter Schools follow open record laws, bill provides for equitable treatment