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House Education met to hear testimony regarding school finance and the final report of the Texas Commission on Public School Finance.

This report is intended to give you an overview and highlight of the discussions on the various topics the committee took up. It is not a verbatim transcript of the hearing but is based upon what was audible or understandable to the observer and the desire to get details out as quickly as possible with few errors or omissions.

Superintendent HD Chambers, Alief ISD and TSA

  • 5 critical things to respond to
  • New money appreciated, support locally differentiated teacher pay, redefining weights to broader and attribute money to them is supported especially looking at weights of ELL and Special Ed
  • Encourages committee to look at way to better align resources to kids who need it
  • Support amount of funding going into system of $1.4 billion for literacy but $400 million on outcomes, encourages careful look at assessments and how they are developed
  • Part of HB 4 was identifying quality standards in pre-K but when they applied for the money, it was a grant program, changed a lot of their behaviors (notes would not recommend funding coming through grant)
    • Recommends incentivize district to access $400 million in lieu of outcome, like was done in HB 4
  • Support CTE and support moving some type of funding in differentiated teacher pay but emphasizes it would need to be locally developed
  • Page 21 on slides he provided, poverty is not a destiny in regarding to 3rd reading for ELL and Special Ed
  • Other recommendations –
    • Re: CEI make sure there are no unintended consequences
    • Moving to current year from prior year has issues
      • Huberty said he thinks they are abandoning ship on that one
    • Look at transportation funding and look at it for districts continuing to grow choice
  • Dutton – why not just offer program at school where bus is picking up students?
    • Sometimes there is a program on a certain campus and there are students from other campuses that would like to access, transportation is hard to provide at scale needed
    • Dutton – asked why not just ask for funding to help put program at other schools
    • Would use some of the funding to provide transportation to programs
    • Dutton – thinks it should be stopped where a student gets on a bus to go to another school, thinks districts need more funding so they can put programs at all school
    • Dutton – number of programs in HISD that operate on the West side of town, so 40% of his students get on a bus every morning to go to the other side of town
    • Lets Dutton know he is comparing two different school districts
    • Dutton – problem is the same in every school district
    • All he is asking is that – they offer transportation dollars
    • Dutton – said choice is not choice when it is a bad school around the corner
  • Very little discussion on sustainable revenue, so without sounding critical they are concerned about new revenue identified
  • Extended school year, firmly convinced that part of issue on 3rd grade literacy is that they do not have them long enough but summer school is different and difficult so he is a big advocate of extending the school year
  • Huberty – how do we measure growth then?
    • You can measure by assessment as long as you measure them based on the grade level they are in, etc
    • This is not an anti-testing accountability issue
    • There are people questioning if test questions are valid, are the questions we are asking of a 3rd grader meant for a 3rd grader
    • Huberty – this discussion is about school finance commission and funding system on a go forward basis
    • Huberty – if we have a problem with STAAR, we will have a discussion on it and will fix it and anticipates that happening as they go forward
  • King – on question of funding sustainability
    • Seems there is so much funding exempted in neighborhood of $30-50 billion range would think someone would look at those areas and determine if they are the most productive for the state or could be put into education
    • Allow some type of local sales tax election in local communities, those are complex but there seems to be enough money not in public education or public health for that matter and not heard those dollars discussed
    • Is it best value to put a break in the economy or put towards 3rd grade reading

 

Superintendent Doug Williams, Sunnyvale ISD and TSA

  • Injecting resources beyond what is needed for growth has to happen
  • Concern on outcome based funding
    • agrees it important to improve children reading in lower grades, not sure incentivizing will produce desired results
    • add to concern on over testing
  • Gonzalez – hear how parents and teachers feel testing has been made priority in education structure, don’t want to continue model that perpetuates overreliance on state testing, and how would you find balance
    • Understand what gets measure gets done but looks at what is place already under A-F
    • Don’t want to see classroom working on STAAR pre test sheets
    • Message kids being given that they must do well on test so district can benefit
    • Regarding balance, have to have resources to provide good research based instruction and agrees districts can be held accountable
  • Gonzalez – don’t think she thought of how tying testing to 3rd grade could great another level of accountability
  • Concern on merit pay – not all districts have the same needs, parents wants all teachers to increase and would like to see the recommendation broadened (in his district could use for professional development, etc) so asking for flexibility
  • Find a system to address diversity of districts in state, does cost a different amount to education students in different areas
  • $9 billion is a big number, but must help all schools and there cannot be winners and losers
  • Basic allotment has been increased less than 1% annually
  • Huberty – cost differential referencing, that even if they implemented something today it would be outdated in six months but feels they have made certain adjustments that will address
  • Huberty – encourage everyone to trust the process
  • Talarico -what about paying based on quality of teaching
    • Believe in collaboration with teachers, put PLCs into calendar – these communities will be impacted if they feel like they need to compete for funds
  • Huberty – knows Bell, VanDeaver, Ashby and King are working on small district rule language

Superintended De La Torre, Ysleta ISD

  • Serve 800k of 5.4 million students in state
  • Provides details on background of students
  • In favor of full day pre-K program, many already do this on their own
  • Gonzalez – do you feel funding for special education weight is what is needed?
    • Feels progress is being made on ELL student performing at meets
    • Special Ed students are outperforming region and state, doing well with resources they have
    • Additional funding will allow them to avoid a plateau and take them and ELL students to the next level
  • Dutton – funding for poverty
    • They may have resources to fund while they are in the school, but different once they leave the school and return to an economically recessed reality

Superintended Michael Hinojosa, Dallas ISD

  • Appreciated committee acknowledgment of current year values, not sure if other committee is at same place
  • Putting weights in comp ed weights have great potential
  • Appreciates efforts in pre-K, they have been doing it for 5 years and now have data to support
  • Dual language allotment have a program that works and this works
  • Appreciates money set aside for third grade reading allotment and dyslexia
  • Current year values would cripple Dallas
  • Have had same CEI for some time, thinks everyone looks different from when CEI was started but key is what is done with basic allotment in the end
  • If only slightly increase then just shifting chairs around on the board, but if you significantly increase then high tides rise all boats
  • Property tax relief – if you have caps being told we will be made whole but being told to wait and see so he will
  • ACE – not for everyone, but it is possible so would support this
  • Notes 3rd grade outcomes are intriguing
  • Huberty – know there were over 30 IR campuses but how many now?
    • 4
  • Huberty – need to be collaborative on outcome based funding
  • Dutton – thanks him for saying there is nothing wrong with the children but what we are giving them
  • Dutton – if research shows African American males are at bottom of results, any insight
    • If you can get students in advanced courses then can rise them all up
    • African American males are getting on bus going to PTECH
    • Biggest disappointment but working on it
    • Chambers – attendance is a significant factor, are they coming to school?
    • Dutton – said may have more success if they don’t have to get on a different bus
  • Bernal – dual language is a hard program to scale and challenge to do statewide, what can be done to improve ELL while teachers wait on dual language
    • Worst than no program is ESL pill out program and it took over 12 years to build out the program
    • HD Chamber – thinking of going one way dual
  • Bernal – want to know what students should they aspire to as they wait for a full dual language program
  • Huberty – critical to say focused on outcomes and provide information if they have suggestions as they move forward
  • Huberty – question to ask districts is if they know who their best teacher are, every single one of them

Tracy Fischer, Coppell ISD and TASB

  • Community is maxed out in terms of property taxes and much growth is going to recapture
  • Current year would help them
  • $10 million in state aid and send back $45 million, transportation allotment would provide some relief to stress budget
  • Appreciate HB 735 for them to raise and lower rates
  • Believes outcome based funding doubles down on high stakes testing
  • Says Lexile’s not being used correctly in STAAR – extremely detrimental
  • Notes well being is needed issue, have crisis counselors
  • Bernal – confirms the counselors address teachers and student needs

Superintendent Scott Murray, Spring Branch ISD

  • Limited in funds because of recapture so support lowering recapture
  • Support increasing basic allotment, formula funding, invest in post-secondary opportunities, funding dual enrollment and dual credit, appreciate direction to keep using prior year values, concern on eliminating CEI
  • Outcome based funding – stress on children that their performance on exam brings funding to school, need to make sure learning is happening
  • Many measures used to paint growth on students
  • Tying outcomes to a single measure may head us down untendered consequences
  • Tying teachers to a single measure may also be of concern, they have a system in place called opportunity culture which allows them to recognize teacher and expand their scope
    • Teach larger group of students and teach larger group of students
    • A way they provide differentiated compensation
  • Encourage them to think broadly on outcomes, pre-K is an input but could also see it as a measure
  • Huberty – asked about tax rate, recapture
    • At $1.09 and send in $88 million in this year and over $90 million the following year

Superintendent Lacy Freeman, Buffalo ISD

  • Have serious shortage of certified teachers, base salary if lower than rest of state
  • Cautious on outcome based funding, putting a lot of emphasis on test when attaching funding to results
  • Supportive of anything that gets kids repetition
  • Ashby – good reason to support small and mid-size adjustment
  • Ashby – asked about merit based pay structure they have
    • Recognized retention as an issue about 10 years ago, performance based and retention based
    • Look at approaches, meets and masters and it works for them
  • King – asked about pay raise bill
    • Will not turn anything down, but have need with auxiliary staff
    • Example of him driving school bus
    • Agree that if only focusing on that teaching team, may miss out on other individuals
  • Huberty – how long did you do TRE? Salary?
    • 2 years ago, just above state minimum salary schedule

 

Edwin Flores, Dallas ISD Trustee

  • Reason improved is due to hard work of educators
  • Will cover accountability and competition
  • School finance should include local control and be predictable
  • Choice without transportation is not a choice
  • Don’t tell him he has to pay an unacceptable teacher $5k, give them the choice
  • Bernal – asked more details on transportation and free and reduced lunch
    • Poverty across district is everywhere
    • Talking about specialized programs such as IB
  • ACE, need to have predictable source for expansion
  • Allen – advocating for all teachers to get a pay raise

Superintendent Pedro Martinez, San Antonio ISD 

  • Feels it is an outdated measure to look at poverty
  • Suggest looking at weight of density in addition to poverty, provided block analysis
    • weighted spectrum of student poverty
  • Have cut low performing schools in half and will do it again, now one of the fastest improving
  • How do they get access to more resources, passed TRE and bond and seeking grants
  • Talarico – asked about outcome based funding
    • Struggle with it, understand concerned on using STAAR testing
    • There are some benefits on outcome based funding as long as you can use multiple measures not just one

Yasmin Bhatia, Uplift Education  

  • A group of charter and public schools in support of finance work
  • Believes there should be a positive return for investment
  • Supports funding toward pre-K as well as rewarding high performing teachers
  • What could be done to support alumni, students ready to go to college
  • Would love to see portion on college readiness help with alumni

Louis Malfaro, Texas American Federation of Teachers

  • Members are excited about addressing a decade of neglect of public schools
  • Excited about pay raise for the whole team, not just some of the team
  • Compensation – disagree with frame around compensation, paying more to a limited number of highly qualified individuals
    • Concern with how they are selected
    • Not opposed to differentiated pay
    • Supportive extra pay for hard to staff school, teachers in high shortage areas
    • We do NOT believe that teachers should be paid based on students standardized test scores
    • Have had enough test and punish
    • Suggests TEI is a forced distribution, predicated that only a small percentage of teachers are good enough to qualify
  • Talarico – if see any role of evaluation of teacher with standardized test
    • Teacher is 15% factor, notes all the other factors
    • Do not think STAAR test is good way to figure out who is doing job
    • Would extend this to any standardized test
  • Huberty – what is it then? What is plan B? How to address 40% can’t read? So somewhere between 60% – 100% read?
    • Agree with last question but also says his son left 1st grade as a non-reader
    • Thinks there is a place and a role for STAAR data
    • Most 3rd graders can read but they may not be able to pass state STAAR test, teachers do reading assessments all the time
  • Huberty – absent of another solution or plan, need to create other ideas
  • Huberty – encourages witness to engage with other stakeholders
  • Funding used to be given to teachers for mentoring, what is being done to support new people coming in
  • Thinks there are a lot of strategies is talking about teacher effectiveness
  • Gonzalez – agrees with Huberty, doesn’t want to just throw money at solution, hears that STAAR may not be it but wants to think about what are tools and look creatively at it
  • Talarico – do you think the way teachers are compensated and evaluates impacts the prestige of the job
    • Yes
    • Notes STAAR test is highly demoralizing if teachers are judged on it
  • Allen – took away teacher development money, need to teach teachers how to teach reading
  • Bernal – you don’t have problem with paying teachers more to go to certain campus, problem is how they are selected

Mike Waldrip, Frisco ISD

  • Talks about how much the district has grown and changed since CEI was established, request thinking on CEI in regards to Frisco
  • Outcome based funding, can’t tie outcomes to STAAR unless assessments are fixed
  • Will offer a plan B, would suggest look at student holistically, suggest DRA

Michael Lee, Executive Director of Rural Schools

  • Small and mid-size school adjustment is very important to them, would like it to stay in beginning of formula
  • Putting this at beginning of formula is because it goes through all program
  • If addressed the minimum salary schedule that would better serve
  • Have a shortage of teacher, if maybe could access retired teachers without them being subject to penalty
  • CEI is a level of concern, waiting to see what they are going to replace it with

Superintendent Jodi Duron, Elgin ISD and TAMS

  • Support maintaining state funding level at amount that will not shift burden to local property tax payers
  • Support stable cost-based formula funding
  • Small and mid size face diseconomy of scale in regular programs and special programs
  • In Elgin ISD they pay 1/3 of special ed costs and maintaining it is a challenge
  • 11% of their population is special ed and they received three referrals a week
  • Special Ed was one formulary area that was not recommended to be increase
  • Concerned this will impact ability to maintain maintenance of effort
  • King – provides details on how he saw stand alone not working
  • Huberty – part of rationale is that some districts have no choice in being small but there are some that choose to remain small
  • King – one thing that was identified is that districts wanted to remain small in urban areas vs rural

Dale Craymer, Texas Taxpayers and Research Association 

  • Support of addition of $9 billion be accompanied with some type of measurement
  • Suggested ways of compression over the interim and reiterates them
  • Have concern on local option sales taxes, do not if system is improved by giving access to highly unequalized funding
  • Good reason for many tax exemptions
  • VanDeaver – asked about a maintaining equity with some of the solutions recommended
    • Suggest using certain money to adjust compression percentage and not create winners and losers
  • Huberty – don’t disagree with his comment on local option creating inequity but have they done any analysis on state wide increase of half a penny or penny with property tax compression?
    • Additional penny may generate another $4-5billion per year in tax rate relief
    • Most successful bone passage rate after relief was provided which cost $7 billion
    • Have bought down taxes with $7 billion an not much relief seen
  • Huberty – saying it would be more than one penny in several things
    • Property tax relief is possible but notable relief is more challenging
  • Huberty – if able to find 15-20% relief on property taxes, for some it will be meaningful

Superintendent John Booth, DeKalb ISD

  • Says this discussion is a bold move
  • Concern on small school adjustment, if you move it out then you will compound it negatively the other direction
  • Maintenance of effort on special ed jumps off the page as one area that may be impacted
  • Unintended results could be students on bus longer, larger class size, impacts to programs
  • Thinks pre-K funding suggestion is powerful
  • King – more to this than more money, if don’t change criteria and policy then may never get more money
  • There is some money for NIFA, don’t think much focus was done in report on debt side
  • VanDeaver – will work hard to get this right by rural Texas
  • Ashby – thoughts on outcome based discussion and pre-K
    • Training and facilities are needed to address full day pre-K
    • Not talking from TREA, personal remarks include that test is not great
    • Need to prove it out, its on grade level
    • Ashby – agree on accountability, but assessment needs to accurately measure
  • Huberty – if we have problem with STAAR or TEKS, its one issue
    • Notes a suggestion was to make it optional
    • Need to think about how to measure outcome
    • Duron – wants to know how Elgin is doing compared to Elgin and if they are making process, numerous measurements and metrics

Natalie Brown, teacher from Dallas ISD

  • Support increase in teacher salary, through strategic compensation
  • Support 3rd grade reading allotment
  • Ensuring high quality requires strategic investment
  • Talarico – asked about how many teachers are distinguished?
    • About 25%, helps teachers through application process, etc
    • Been at campus for 13 years
  • Talarico – asked about culture on campus with TEI
    • Shocked to hear negative details, finds they are open on her campus
  • The more teachers understand the process the more it helps, student surveys being in charge of 15% of their pay is one area she things should be looked at in TEI
  • In place of student input, would look at teacher service
  • Talarico – asked about evaluation
    • Broke down percentages and clarified student evaluation IS NOT part of her evaluation
  • Huberty – are you ok with the system on how it is set up?
    • multiple measures for evaluation
  • Sanford – asked about education for teacher
    • Alt cert, best impact was mentor the first year
  • Huberty – follows up asking is mentors to teachers got paid?
    • Yes they did but believe program has since been done, think they got like $1k stipend

Sarah Perez, Teach Plus

  • Stories of need for improved facilities, personnel such as counselors
  • Recommends educator effectiveness allotment, etc
  • Talarico – asked if her district has a compensation system like Dallas?
    • Yes, have master teacher program
    • Stay before or after school with students that need help
    • Not evaluation program
  • Huberty – how do you become a master teacher?
    • Application process, must show they have been effective in data, send a recording of you teaching and then an interview with the principal
    • About 5 on her campus of over 40 teachers
  • Huberty – would you do more master teachers if you could?
    • Believe so yes, difference in pay is $15k
    • Stipend in two parts
  • Sanford – asked about education for teacher
    • Went traditional route
    • Nothing prepares you for first year, what prepares you is a great mentor in that first year

Justin Yancey, Texas Business Leadership Council

  • Texas Workforce not keeping up with demands of economy
  • Must do something to better prepare students for workforce of tomorrow
  • Supportive of commission report including finding states strongest teachers and place them where they are needed most
  • Support outcome funding, as high stakes as they come when see loss to earnings if students are not prepared

Dr. Theresa Trevino, Next Generation of Assessment and Accountability

  • Said she did not sign her report because of high stakes
  • STAAR was written above grade level
  • Test incents to drill and kill
  • Research states not to put one sole measurement for monetary purpose
  • States that have put in similar types of system have caused gaps to widen
  • Huberty – don’t think this detail is helpful
  • Huberty – if not teaching teachers how to teach reading, then shame on those just asking for more money; need to find measurement
  • Talarico – thoughts on early literacy allotment
    • Still don’t think cultural doing well tie funding to one measure, multiple things going on
  • Would say fund basic allotment – all boats will rise

Lisa Dawn Fischer, Texas State Teachers Association

  • Teachers spend over $700 a year our of pocket buying school supplies, and more on their health insurance
  • Teachers end up getting a second job to make ends meet
  • Agrees funding basic allotment does raise all boats

Jesus Chavez, South Texas Association of Schools

  • Support many recommendations and have a few concerns on report
  • Support increasing comp ed rate
  • Invest in poor in state
  • Bernal – FRL recommendation clarification
    • Talking about comp ed and range
  • Bernal – asked for more details on FRL
    • Whether you look at propensity of poverty gets additional funding they will be for, whichever one gets more funding
  • Bernal – concern is about diminishment of funds?
    • Yes
  • Would look at line of distribution so there is not a stair step case in funding
  • Appreciate inclusion of CTE, dyslexia weight
  • Believe CEI is an element that should remain with funding system, understand it is out of date would suggest instead it is updated
  • Huberty – disagrees, talking about increasing basic allotment significantly and CEI is going away and it is going away for a very good reason
  • Huberty – trying to simplify formulas

Moak Casey

  • Will quickly move over CEI
  • Having values is key issue, property tax process can drag on and impacts state ability to appropriate money
  • Guessing on how property funding will work on using current year values, stresses budget
  • Statute states with funds appropriated can protect districts from any losses in property taxes up to a certain percentage, been on books for a while and not consistently funded
    • Tried to run estimated if they adjusted for no more than a 4% loss and if provided consistent funding
  • Huberty – what is that used for?
    • Values adjusted for districts that have a decline
    • Huberty – not an ASTAR, hardship grants at $150 million – where is it?
    • Have breakout on charts that were provided to member
    • This addresses concern on what to do when values decline more than a certain percentage from year to another
  • Huberty – We have $37.5 million in budget each year, and you think its closer to $100 million
    • Yes, probably right now
    • When funded it works effectively
    • Correct that it is just an appropriation
  • Facilities funding issue, appreciate Chair work on this included raise in EDA yield
  • Huberty – over 65 issue, what got messed up
    • Fischer – really if it becomes an issue depends on mechanism used to reduce tax rates

Christy Rome, Texas School Collation

  • Appreciate it’s a big picture process
  • Current year vs prior year already addressed
  • Don’t want to repeat history of previous compressed tax rates, districts left holding bag on funding
  • Don’t want districts to receive less funding to meet needs of students
  • Asked to explain hold harmless, original districts guaranteed equalized wealth level – need is to ensure no loss of funding
  • Would say no district has enough funding so loss would be unfortunate, wants to ensure no district loses funding

Kristian McGuire, Texas Council of Administration of Special Education

  • Thanks commission for work, appreciates opportunity to be included in panel and hearing
  • Appreciates recommendation for weight in dyslexia
  • Will need some more discussion on interplay between dyslexia and special education and getting teachers in those fields
  • Think of what reform can be done with special education weights
  • Have a 5th Circuit case that was condensing of special education support

Steve Aleman, Disability Rights Texas  

  • Looks forward to moving forward with discussion on policy and financing
  • 1&2 Principles: target resources for services and outcomes of students with disabilities, simplify allocation system
  • Huberty – if look at system today based on contact hour, since we have seen cap removed and increase go up in regards to amount of special education students…asked TEA for that number?
    • Leo Lopez, TEA – 17-18 at 9.3% and projected 9.7% so don’t know if they will hit 10% until the following biennium
  • Trend line with students being identified with special needs going up
  • 3rd – have system addressing all students with disabilities, could have students getting 504 with accommodations and it is not covered IDEA, etc so would like to expand state support to serve this other population which don’t get any funding from state or federal government
  • 4th – promoting inclusion, students with disabilities in all school activities (but need resources to provide assistance in integrated system)
  • Need to move to service needs, service intensity need and weights are geared to level of need
  • Huberty – asked witness if he has talked to Leo and its impact to LAR, what does it equate to? Assuming they don’t hit MOE, may need to do it in supplemental
    • Lopez and TEA gracious in dialogue
    • $800 million to account for increase students, can take current funding and increase funding and satisfy state MOE
    • Local MOE issues should be resolved
    • Lopez – thinks he needs more details on their plan
  • Gonzalez – what witness is trying to highlight, have to meet MOE by truly funding at cost
    • McGuire – special ed is a particular allotment where districts consistently spend more than federal or state allotment
  • Gonzalez – identification discussion, working to incentivize on finding students
    • McGuire – agree, have not met one special ed director yet that has not yet seen a significant increase in evaluation requests
    • McGuire – need a better handle on identifying students with need whether special ed or 504
    • Aleman – there are details in presentation that was sent in ahead of time
  • Huberty – asked witness to get with Leo and get him numbers the committee can review
  • Huberty – not opposed to suggestions but don’t want unintended consequences
  • Bernal – agree conversations need to start right now