Print đź–¨

The House State Affairs Committee met on October 19 to hear invited testimony from agencies, developers, and county officials concerning the Colony Ridge development in Liberty County, and also to take up and vote out HB 4 (Spiller). The Committee also voted out SB 4 (Flores) and SB 7 (Middleton) to the full House.

This report is intended to give you an overview and highlight the various topics taken up. It is not a verbatim transcript of the discussions but is based upon what was audible or understandable to the observer.

Vote Outs

SB 4 (Flores) voted out to full House (9-3)

SB 7 (Middleton) voted out to full House (9-3)

HB 4 (Spiller) voted out to full House (8-4)

 

Colony Ridge Opening Comments

  • Chair Hunter – Invited testimony only on colony Ridge
  • Raymond – If the Gov.’s Office is listening, would be good to have a resource witness

 

Kelly Keel, TCEQ Interim Director – Resource

  • Current TCEQ jurisdiction covers permitting, compliance, and enforcement for air emissions, storm water, wastewater, and drinking water
  • TCEQ has issued 1 air permit, 10 domestic water permits
  • TCEQ has investigated based on compliance schedule, since 2017 spent more than 1,500 hours investigating Colony Ridge; have completed 45 investigations to date with more ongoing
  • Investigations have resulted in 32 enforcement actions, but no different than what would be found in other new developments
  • Have 28 ongoing investigations resulting from complaints regarding wastewater and drinking water; should be finalized in November
  • S Thompson – Would like a meeting with you sometime during the interim with the Reed Estate and 4 bottles of water, Harris County also has an issue with air quality rules being issued without public input
    • Would be happy to meet with you
  • C Turner – How many investigations have you initiated?
    • 45 have been completed, 28 ongoing
  • C Turner – How were these initiated? Complaint?
    • Majority driven by complaints, but also routine investigations based on schedule
  • C Turner – Complaints were from residents? Who were the complainants?
    • Refers to Director of Office of Compliance and Enforcement
    • Craig Pritzlaff, TCEQ – Mixture of residents and those outside of community, have received 41 complaints since 2017, 24 wastewater, 3 drinking water, 12 stormwater runoff, 2 air issues
  • C Turner – In terms of who the complainants are, mixture of residents?
    • Some, and then some originating outside; complainant info is usually kept confidential
    • There are neighboring community residents that have complained and some outside
  • C Turner – If you’re outside the community, what would’ve led to a complaint?
    • Can’t speak to what their interest might be
    • TCEQ has a robust complaint process, investigate any and all in our jurisdiction
    • Wastewater complaints could be a manhole overflow, so TCEQ would get onsite and investigate, take follow up action with responsible party
  • C Turner – Colony Ridge is a MUD, correct? Or series of MUDs?
    • Believe it is a series
  • C Turner – Do you know how many?
    • Do not know, refers to other TCEQ staff
  • C Turner – With respect to compliance and enforcement, what authority do you have to rectify the situation?
    • Have statutory authority, incl. admin penalties and formal enforcement action
    • Enforcement incl. working with entity to achieve compliance, possible admin penalty and orders
  • C Turner – When you do assess a penalty, is that against the MUD or a developer? Who is the recipient?
    • Goes to whoever the owner or operator is
  • Bailes – This development started before I was elected, spoke with TCEQ upon election about what was being done; do you feel there are deficiencies in current rules to address developments of this size?
    • No
  • Bailes – Number of complaints similar to other developments of this size?
    • I would say it’s average
  • C Turner – Would like to discuss with other resource about MUDs; how many MUDs are in Colony Ridge
    • Justin Tack, TCEQ – Based on records it appears it is 2, Liberty County MUD and Liberty County MMD
  • C Turner – Possible there are others?
    • Possible, both were created legislatively and those are the two based on our info
  • C Turner – Asks about MUD creation
    • TCEQ can create and the legislature can create
  • C Turner – What is the ratio of TCEQ and legislature created MUDs?
    • Historically, a little more weighted to TCEQ, but recent legislative sessions it has been relatively close
  • C Turner – Are MUDs typically in unincorporated areas?
    • Getting that way now as land close to municipalities is used
  • C Turner – MUDs and MMDs have the ability to regulate what? Relative to Colony Ridge do they have authority on transportation, flooding, etc.?
    • Water districts can set their own bylaws and rules & TCEQ is not involved in those
    • Can regulate anything under their power, e.g. water, wastewater, transportations, etc.
  • C Turner – So depending on how MUD is established they could have transportation authority?
    • They can, not aware if the Colony Ridge MUDs have the authority
    • Water is general powers, available to MUDs generally
  • Raymond – When you have Mud applications at TCEQ, do you know what percentage are approved?
    • Historically a very large percentage, TCEQ recently denied 3, not aware of any others
  • Raymond – So generally approved, if the applicant meets legal requirements they are approved?
    • Correct
  • Raymond – Rep. Bell is going to propose a bill that a Commissioner’s Court has to be involved in approval
  • Bailes – Carried the bills for Colony Ridge MUD and MMD, went well beyond the standard template for MUD bills, put in minimum building restrictions; could only do MUDs on land not developed prior to this
  • Bailes – Many issues are on that prior development land, went through the legislative process to ensure there were standards, worked with local school district to take care of concerns; put in minimum road restrictions & prior to issuance of bonds
  • Chair Hunter – Procedurally, can only ask questions

 

John Harris, Colony Ridge Inc. CEO – Neutral

  • Speaking on what Colony Ridge Inc. does & why it was incorporated
  • Have heard & seen media stories that are unbelievable sounding, this is because these stories are untrue, highlights commonly circulated story that happened two towns away in another county
  • Started company with brother & company, bought subdivisions no one wanted & sold to people others wouldn’t sell to, but customers still had trouble moving to the property due to associated costs
  • Wanted to make this better by building roads, water systems, internet, etc.
  • Built roads to county specifications, was approved by the Commissioner’s Court & County has worked with us well; have had complaints from neighbors to the development, not from County officials
  • Most important thing for customers was to provide financing that they couldn’t get anywhere else, allowed customers to move in & allowed company to grow
  • Have been able to donate 65 acres to schools, donated land for a County Sheriff annex, built an activity center owned by the MMD; POA helps people with their permits, provides translation services, architecture services, company interface, etc.
  • Many are first-time property owners, so we help them as much as we can
  • S Thompson – You’re telling us you acquired some property, you developed it according to law, you sold it according to law, and you instituted certain necessary things like roads, water, etc.? And you didn’t violate any laws
    • Yes
  • S Thompson – And there are some complaints like in any community
    • Yes
  • S Thompson – Testimony from TCEQ indicated they have received complaints on a variety of issues and they’ve been trying to address them with you, but more importantly you’ve built up this area and selling to people due to the financial arrangements you’ve made; you helped them finance and tried to address issues that have come up
    • Yes
  • S Thompson – You cannot prevent people from complaining, but you tried to address legitimate issues
    • Yes
  • Dean – Who started all this? Why all of the sudden are we hearing about this? Why are we even here doing this?
    • Still don’t know the answer to this, there have been a few very loud people in Plum Grove
  • Dean – Are they mad because you bought the property and they didn’t?
    • It was vacant timber property, might’ve had a hunting lease or something
    • We brought a lot of people next door, 30k acres on timberland
  • Dean – have there been lawsuits driving this?
    • Plum Grove sued us for flooding and a sewer discharge
  • Dean – But that wouldn’t bring you here and us here? What else happened, you read about cartels, we all have this stuff going on; what created us being here today?
    • I don’t know, the one headline I referenced early is the most inflammatory, but there are stories of cartels, illegal aliens, etc. and it scares people
    • Apologize about not reaching out and trying to do public outreach, but didn’t think anyone would take that seriously
    • Know it’s scary and important, but I don’t know why
  • Dean – Things were put in place to make sure there were laws and procedures, have every confidence in County, cities, schools, etc. working with you; we have a lot of issues we deal with & it seems like local control worked; you stepped on the wrong toes or something and here we sit
    • I’m still a little puzzled, was hoping you could help me
    • I’m guessing part of it is political
    • We donated to Gov. Abbott, maybe his enemies?
  • Dean – Is there some issue with arrests for criminal activity compared to others?
    • Subdivision and company paid over $40m in property taxes last year, POA paid over $1m to contract with 10 additional sheriffs; this is the LEO we pay above and beyond for
    • Paid extra for the schools, etc.
    • Only about 1/3rd of the customers live on the lots they’ve purchased, 2/3rds of the taxpayers aren’t using the services
    • Don’t think LEO is the issue
  • Dean – The problem is we don’t know the problem
  • Guillen – My staff visited the area, told me about the POA hiring additional LEOs; very rare that a POA would pay outside of the normal taxes, why do you believe the POA might’ve done that?
    • I’m on the board, we knew our growth had potential to strain county resources, knew that some element in the county frowned on what we were doing, due to race of customers, developing a deer lease, or new neighbors, etc.
    • Wanted customers to feel safe, police presence helps with that, sheriffs do a great job of community policing and it has worked out well
    • We don’t get a lot of extra officers, the ones we pay for are largely the only
  • Guillen – So if the POA wasn’t paying, you wouldn’t have patrolling officers?
    • Don’t know that, have 50 officers in the Sheriff’s Dept., 10 are contracted, we’re sent maybe 1; seems like we wouldn’t have a crime problem if that’s what we’re getting
  • Bailes – Many ask why Commissioner’s Court allowed this to happen; could you have placed the same development in adjoining counties or do they have more stringent procedures, how have Liberty County development procedures changed?
    • Ongoing conversations all the time with the county
    • Had a workshop in 2018 and all stakeholders were invited
    • As far as going to another county, because some aspects of the community aren’t pretty it would be hard to do, but don’t think it would be illegal to locate in another county
    • Some minor things like road standards might change
  • Bailes – On road standards, want to talk about the roller-compacted concrete used; also you’re outside the ETJ and want to know about regulations enforcement
    • Roller-compacted concrete is mixed dry and dumped almost like asphalt, we built it because the MMD has road repair powers & wanted to be able to help county if they struggled to maintain the roads
    • Spent more money to build roller-compacted concrete because they should last 20 years, longer than asphalt; also easier to get approved by county if they know we’re going above & beyond
  • Bailes – If the roads are expected to last 20 years, you haven’t had to repair?
    • No, heat caused buckling, etc. but happens on other roads; repairs have to be done
    • When we built the roads, the county looked at plans, planning, and lab reports, then they accepted the roads & Colony Ridge must take of roads for 2 years; many other counties would require only 1 year
    • If Colony Ridge Inc. disappeared, county still has bonds to complete roads to specs
  • Bailes – Enforcement of restrictions, is that outside of ETJ? Plum Grove actually de-annexed areas
    • Enforcement of deed restrictions is through the POA, there is an Architectural Committee
    • Actually have 6 neighborhoods, some sections are housing only, some are sold to builders; have different restrictions in some areas
  • Raymond – You referenced some House members touring Colony Ridge? Are you willing to issue an open invite?
    • Absolutely, would happy to tour anyone from the legislature, very proud of what we do
  • Raymond – Having seen some unincorporated areas in South Texas what you’re describing sounds so much better
  • Spiller – Relative to law enforcement and issues particular to Colony Ridge & Liberty County; might suggest you visit with County judge and Sheriff on collaboration with other counties in TX
  • Guillen – Important to point out things you’ve done for the subdivisions that are above and beyond minimum standards, for example you have sewer?
    • Yes, MUD and MMD tax doesn’t pay for construction of water and sewer, construction is privately owned; typically tax would reimburse the developer
    • In our situation the developer pays up front and then gets investment back as customers pay tap fees
    • Started with a couple of water & sewer systems, but tap fees were so high with one company, rather than take reimbursement, asked them to reduce tap fees due to expenses possibly keeping customers out
  • Guillen – Water to each lot is required?
    • Yes
  • Guillen – .5 acre lots?
    • That’s what we started with, now have lots that are 40 ft wide for builders, builders trying to make it affordable
  • Guillen – .5 acre lots have sewer?
    • Put sewer and water to every lot
  • Guillen – Is it required?
    • If it is .5 acre I believe it is required, we could do 1 acre, but wanted it to be easy for customers
    • Watching the difficulties people had with water & sewer is what inspired us to build Colony Ridge
  • C Turner – On Sept. 30 some members of Congress wrote to the AG about concerns, AG has responded since you’ve been up here talking to us; have you visited with the AG about his research on Colony Ridge?
    • I haven’t personally, have responded to requests through our attorney
  • C Turner – Aware of anyone from the AG’s Office coming to Colony Ridge?
    • Yes, had 4 people from the OAG do a tour with legislators
  • C Turner – Among other things AG says that scale of growth and externalities have led to too many people and too much chaos, is that true?
    • I don’t think so, no
  • C Turner – he also said scale of crime is unmanageable, public disturbance, infrastructure overuse, etc. has affected other areas; do you think that is fair?
    • No, don’t think so at all, wish he would’ve come out himself
  • C Turner – Won’t go through personal attacks against legislators, but Gov. Abbott put this on the special session call; did you have any discussions with he Gov.’s Office, have you heard from them?
    • No
  • Anchia – Would like to speak to TCEQ Resource again
  • Bailes – Are you aware that the deputies the AG sent to me on Sept. 5 to address Plum Grove concerns about Colony Ridge were the whistleblowers in the lawsuit?
    • I was not
  • J Lopez – Heard you have a lot of regulations, how do laws compare in Colony Ridge compared to high end areas? Any difference?
    • I don’t think so
  • Raymond – How did they come up with the name Cut & Shoot?
    • There is a story, not as exciting as you expect, based on a fight and a quote said during it

 

Kelly Keel, TCEQ – Resource

  • Anchia – You’re the interim director, how long have you been in the role?
    • Keel – June of 2023
  • Anchia – Any approvals regarding Colony Ridge would’ve preceded your tenure?
    • Majority, yes
  • Anchia – Early on as the MMD and MUD were being developed, that was way before your tenure; does TCEQ do any approvals at that point? Know they were established legislatively?
    • In 2017, no
  • Anchia – As TCEQ started receiving complaints, your predecessor would’ve been coming up with consent orders?
    • Yes, happens in Office of Compliance & Consent, have had 3 agreed orders related to Colony Ridge investigations
  • Anchia – ED or you sign off on orders?
    • Delegated to the ED
  • Anchia – Who was your predecessor?
    • Second interim ED, prior to this was Erin Chancellor, her tenure was 6 months
  • Anchia – Who was the longer term ED prior to that?
    • Toby Baker
  • Anchia – Where did he go?
    • The Gov.’s Office

 

Steve McCraw, DPS – Resource

  • Rep. Dean made a good point, there isn’t a community in TX that is not impacted by cartels and gangs
  • DPS has received reports, Gov.’s Office told us about a “no-go” zone in Liberty County; spoke with Sheriff and he didn’t think it was the case
  • We were concerned about reports about organized criminal activity; sheriff is working with few resources; DPS sent in special agents, but numbers were paltry, didn’t detect much criminal activity
  • Numbers compared to similar areas in Austin are night and day; seeing more arrests in Austin compared to Liberty County in a similar area
  • Numbers are substantially lower in Colony Ridge during same time periods
  • Continuing to support Sheriff, understand it is a challenge to be proactive
  • C Turner – So it sounds like DPS has been engaged in Liberty County and Colony Ridge, you’ve been able to aid local law enforcement, you’ve dealt with some issues like with other communities, but the situation has been manageable?
    • Yes and you don’t see things like in South Texas like home invasions, stash houses, stolen vehicles, etc.
  • C Turner – Are you able to effectively enforce the law?
    • I believe so, but would defer to the Sheriff; Sheriff has done a great job
  • C Turner – Did the AG consult with you about the report made public this morning?
    • No, haven’t seen the report
  • Bailes – Do appreciate you have allocated additional resources, know that just one county above this area can only have 3 officers allocated; appreciates DPS

 

Bobby Rader, Liberty County Sheriff’s Office – Neutral

  • Media coverage is blown out a lot, have been quoted on things I don’t recall saying
  • I think you see all over the state issues with communities that are poor, communities that are rich, etc.
  • Yes there are cartel members out there, no they have not given us a problem
  • Not a “no-go” zone anywhere in that place
  • Cartel members are being monitored by federal agencies, but have had no cartel arrests in Liberty County for the past 3 years
  • Do have gang presence in the County, but have not had to deal with them; have some groups that say they are gangs, but do not qualify as gangs under the law
  • Have problems with juveniles doing wrong things, but cannot tie them to organized crime
  • Some quotes I’ve seen, in March of 2021 there was a large meth bust in Florida and some passed through in Colony Ridge, have seen several abandoned vehicles with features of human trafficking
  • Area has gotten a reputation for being a hub for drug and human trafficking, DPS is helping out a bunch
  • Texas Ranger told Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick that many arrests were of people from this area
  • There have not been 17 drug overdose deaths at Cleveland ISD, have had 17 overdoses
  • No one has a correct count of Liberty County or subdivision residents; if 50k people are in the subdivision, simple math have 1 deputy for every 5k, most I will ever have on duty is 3 though so 1 deputy for every 16k
  • Problem we have in the subdivision is we don’t have enough people, County has given us everything they have in the budget; DPS has done special ops, 8 troopers; but when a deputy is sick they are pulled from out of the subdivision
  • DPS has made a big impact on helping us work out there
  • Metcalf – I gather from the conversation that you need some more resources, what would those be?
    • No definite answer; DPS proposed 20-22 per 10k, others proposed 16; but you also look at volume of crime
    • Grant could help us pay overtime
  • Metcalf – How many people are living in the subdivision right now?
    • Don’t know, my number is 50k
  • Raymond – A couple of sessions ago you might’ve followed HB 1200 to prevent defunding LEOs; I wanted to make that for every county, wanted Liberty County to be covered, but there’s nothing compelling them to fund LEOs and they County could go back on this
    • Liberty County leadership supports LEO
  • Raymond – Don’t know if Gov. is listening, maybe can put lowering the threshold for the defunding bill on the call; maybe we can take this and do something with it
  • Hernandez – You said there are cartel and gang members in the area?
    • Present in the subdivision, but they aren’t committing any crimes; have other cartel and gang members elsewhere in Liberty County that we watch
    • Even though the reporters say there is a gang presence, that have not broken any laws leading to arrest; being monitored by DEA
  • Guerra – Is the crime rate at Colony Ridge any higher than in other unincorporated parts of Liberty County
    • Yes, it is, because the other areas aren’t as population dense
  • Guerra – But it’s not disproportionate to other parts of the county?
    • No, and have sufficient deputies for the other areas of the county
  • Guerra – And you have not defunded your police?
    • No, we have not
  • Guillen – Would you agree that there are a number of other counties with the same problem?
    • Yes
  • Guillen – Did a little research, and noticed the ratio of unincorporated population to officers gets worse around the big metro areas; do you know where Liberty County ranks compared to others?
    • Reason we’ve had a problem retaining LEOs because they can go to larger counties and get a major raise
    • LEOs are also worried about being recorded and accused, also causes issues with retaining officers
    • Know several areas with problem retaining officers

 

Jay Knight, Liberty County Judge – Neutral

  • Other witnesses have touched on all the subjects, Liberty County used to be little and we’re not anymore
  • County is growing, had this conversation with the Senate 8 years ago; same questions were asked back then regarding control of the county
  • Colony Ridge is not a colonia, Colony Ridge has private water and sewer regulated by TCEQ, ditches and roads will become property of the county
  • Problem now is not just Liberty County, it is every county; Houston County had someone buy 50k acres cut into 10.1 acre tracts so there is no county oversight
  • Laws for development in TX favor developers, same issued discussed 8 years ago
  • Other question is what caused all this, have a big election year coming up
  • Raymond – Think we’re here on Colony Ridge because of the public safety issue; you approved the LEO budget, didn’t cut them back?
    • No, we’ve added every year
  • Raymond – Colony Ridge POA funding 10 LEOs
    • And the MMD funds two to the Constable’s Office
  • Raymond – They’re not compelled by law to do that, so next year if they decide they weren’t going to pay for that, would those be funded by Liberty County?
    • Would need to do something really fast
  • Raymond – If you don’t do anything, you would’ve effectively defunded LEOs; think we should expand defunding bill to every county
  • C Turner – Sounds like if you had a recommendation it would be perhaps giving county gov additional tools to manage growth and manage the county?
    • Yes, currently can only negotiate with developers, have been able to negotiate with Colony Ridge MMD and that worked out well for us
    • Just need to find out which would be the best way to do this
  • C Turner – Tools with the MMD are from the bills passed by Rep. Bailes?
    • Yes
  • C Turner – But that doesn’t apply to all of the developments; generally speaking if the county was provided additional authority it would be in transportation, water & wastewater, storm, etc.?
    • Water will be a problem for anybody
    • All developments are not the same size, Colony Ridge is very large and became that way over the last 9-10 years; what about the next development that might be larger than Colony Ridge?
    • When MMD was implemented it helped out a lot
  • Bailes – On Plum Grove, have thousands of acres of timber that held water, slow release, now have lots of ditches and the big question is regulating outflows; can you speak to the hydrology study and the reason Plum Grove came into existence
    • Plum Grove was incorporated in 1968 and did not have a property tax until recently, originally incorporated because they flooded a lot and wanted to go after HUD and USDA grants
    • Plum Grove then decided they didn’t want to administer permits for water and drainage and gave the power to the county, county doesn’t have restricted powers like a city; no matter what developer came in, county couldn’t do anything about it but Plum Grove could have
    • County had money through COG and FEMA for flooding, $21.3m that funded drainage study and drainage plan through variance on intent of flood mitigation
    • Once study and plan is completed we will have a county drainage district funded by impact fees on developers; will make developers pay for what they’re going to do
    • 5 other counties have reacted in the same fashion and requested funds be changed as well

HB 4 (Spiller) Relating to prohibitions on the illegal entry into or illegal presence in this state by a person who is an alien, the enforcement of those prohibitions, and authorizing the removal of persons who violate certain of those prohibitions in lieu of arrest; creating criminal offenses.

  • Spiller lays out HB 4
  • Spiller – Since launch of Operation Lone Star over half a million apprehensions have been made; 35,000 criminal arrests, 31,000 felony charges
  • Texas Law enforcement has seized 441 million lethal doses of fentanyl
  • HB 4 allows Texas to protect Texas
  • HB 4 for the first time ever Texas will subject people for illegal entry into our state from a foreign nation
  • All licensed law enforcement will have the authority to detain any person coming into Texas Illegally; maximum sentence of 20 years for someone who refuses to return
  • Illegal re entry will also be punished up to 20 years
  • Chapter 51.01 defines alien and port of entry
  • Chapter 51.02 states a person who is an alien commits an offense if a person enters or attempts to enter Texas from a foreign nation at any location other than a port of entry; First offense is a class A misdemeanor
  • This section allows affirmative defense if the federal government allows lawful presence in the USA or asylum or DACA
  • A peace officer can drive an immigrant to a port of entry and order them to return the foreign nation
  • Chapter 51.04, a refusal to comply to return from the foreign nation they came is a 2nd degree felony punishable by 2-20 years
  • HB 4 is distinguishable from Arizona v USA
  • State laws are presented when they get in the way of federal law
  • Texas has the constitutional right to protect its borders & this should be less costly
  • Raymond – I have a problem with the wording “may” instead of “shall”. Also views that full deportation is the solution instead of sending them to state housing.
    • Spiller – Originally, they are detained and a decision is made whether they are returned or arrested.
  • Raymond – Will gang members get three meals a day, healthcare, clothes?
    • They will get all the benefits of inmates
  • Raymond – That is better than their current situation. We are going to fatten you up and release you after 6 months. Texas is now a sanctuary state, if we keep sending them back to Mexico will react and enforce their immigration law
    • I think you and I are on the same page about returning them from where they came from. The focus of this bill is not to punish. We use “may” to give DPS options and constitutional reasons
  • Raymond – Put that in the bill, that gang member etc. will be treated differently and it wont be the majority of people you’ll stop
    • I am willing to listen to folks to make good policy
  • Raymond – You are saying to incarcerate individuals
    • No I am not, they will be turned over to border patrol and ordered to go back to Mexico. They are not being locked up for 6 months, they would if they are prosecuted
    • Under the wording of my bill they are detained not technically arrested. They are taken to a port of entry and told to leave. If the refuse to leave they will be prosecuted
  • Raymond – Where does it say “shall” be told to leave? Why not change to wording form “may” to “shall”
    • Having the word “may” is language of intent, “shall” creates constitutional problems
  • Hernadez – It is worded as “may” for constitutionality and for officers options, are we concerned about lawsuits?
    • We are ordering them to go back at a US port of entry
    • They are ordered to leave, they can either do that or not. If they don’t they will be prosecuted
  • Hernandez – a law enforcement officer wouldn’t be transporting them to Mexico?
    • No they aren’t
  • Hernandez – explain the removal order of the bill?
    • It is not a formal removal so it’s not federal law. It is an order to return. An order to return is different than a federal removal order
  • Hernadez – We arere issuing this order but not doing anything?
    • We are ordering them to return, law enforcement will respond accordingly whether they comply with that order to return or don’t
  • Hernadez – How many resources are going to be used for people that do have citizenship?
    • I trust law enforcement to look at the totality of the situation and make a decision. This gives them the leeway to make those decision
  • Hernandez – You include peace officers?
    • I don’t anticipate any scenario where anyone beside law enforcement will enforce this
    • I don’t anticipate this enforced outside of 100 miles from the border
  • Hernadez – will there be training for these officers?
    • Yes, I would think that with the passing of this bill there would need to be some sort of training
  • Thompson – How many new officers will we need to hire?
    • I don’t think this bill requires additional personnel. This would be a tool for them
  • Thompson – Can you tell to return to their original country or just Mexico?
    • Just Mexico. Mexico let them and Mexico can send them back
  • Thompson – Where does the money come from to pay for Operation Lone Star?
    • Taxe payers of Texas
  • Turner – How will a peace officer know that someone unlawfully entered Texas?
    • They look at the totality of the circumstances. They are making determination on the scene based on a number of factors
  • Turner – The peace officer does not need to witness them crossing the border?
    • Correct
  • Turner – Let’s say someone has been here 1 year and an officer suspects they are here unlawfully. Could they be arrested and removed by peace officers?
    • It’s possible but I don’t know any prosecutors that would take that case knowing they can’t prove unlawful entry.
  • Turner – What is stopping law enforcement officers from abusing this bill?
    • The purpose is to stop what’s going on at the border it is not to incarcerate everyone in Texas illegally
  • Turner – How do you envision the process of suspecting someone entering the country unlawfully unfolding?
    • They look at the totality of the circumstance, decide whether a violation has occurred and whether it is provable. If so, they would take them to a port of entry and order them to return
  • Turner – Does the prosecutor have to be involved according to this bill?
    • No
  • Turner – What is part of the totality of the situation?
    • They look at the scene, where they are, questioning. They have the right under probable cause just like they would at a traffic stop.
  • Turner – So basically the officer will employ a variety of different methods to determine citizenship?
    • Yes
  • Turner – Most of these encounters will take place within 100 miles of the border?
    • Correct
  • Turner – What happens to green card holders if they don’t have documentation on them?
    • This is not an attempt to go after legal residents or non-legal residents. I still believe they would have proof of the green card.
  • Turner – Is an airport a port of entry on the bill?
    • I am not sure
  • Turner – So would we have to pay for the airplane ticket? Would it be a county expense?
    • Yes
  • Neave-Criado – Can a mother be arrested and a child not? What happens to the child?
    • The discussions that I have had are not about separating children from parents. They could take them to a port of entry and order them back. They could also turn them over to border patrol. There are many options.
  • Neave-Criado – Theres no language that prohibits the separation?
    • No, but I don’t anticipate that happening
  • Neave-Criado – is the state going to be responsible for reuniting families
    • The bill does not address that
  • J Lopez – What determines when they are going to approach someone?
    • The process in which they have an encounter is much the same as what we are doing currently
  • J Lopez – Who will be able to ask about immigration status?
    • I would believe police officers will be able to ask about legal citizenship.

 

Steve McCraw, DPS – Resource

  • Neave Criado – How does DPS handle a mother and child?
    • McCraw – Mother and child are turned over to border patrol
  • J Lopez – What determines when an officer does question someone?
    • Probable cause determines it
  • Lopez – Will law enforcement have the power to determine legal status?
    • Only ICE and Border patrol have access to that. We will have to do our due diligence
  • Raymond – Based on your experience it is more effective to take them to the bridge and say go back
    • Absolutely
  • Turner – How would DPS officers make the determination of unlawful entry into Texas?
    • It depends on the circumstances. If someone in the back of a 18 wheeler trailer, it doesn’t have to be clear cut
  • Turner – Would an officer ask “are you a citizen?” or “what is your immigration status?”
    • I don’t think so, unless the officer had probable cause
  • Turner – What if someone came over through a port entry with a visa but overstayed their welcome?
    • This bill wouldn’t give us power to deal with that, we’d refer that to the government

 

Chuck DeVore, Texas Public Policy foundation – For

  • Bottom line HB 4 is a good bill and a constitutional bill
  • Concerned with Texas Border and cartel threat
  • It creates an offense for illegal entry into the state and allows law enforcement to detain and transport aliens to a port of entry

 

Justin Estep, Texas Catholic Conference of Bishops – Against

  • Law enforcement agencies should not do each other’s jobs
  • Border security is a federal power
  • Does not make any provision for people seeking asylum
  • The bill will delay asylum seekers
  • Bill could deny asylum seekers
  • Court and detention facilities will be overwhelmed
  • Raymond – Do you believe the federal government is doing a good job of enforcing immigration laws
    • They could do better
  • Raymond – Do you believe in expanding the visa worker program?
    • Yes
  • Raymond – can ya’ll advocate for expanding the visa worker program?
    • We can try our best

 

Charles Maley, South Texans Property Rights – Approve

  • Our members are daily affected by illegal immigration
  • This will be one more tool to stop illegal immigration
  • The criminal element makes this urgent

 

Adam Haines, Conference of Urban Counties – Against

  • Bill is close but not there yet
  • The liability that will transfer to counties and property taxpayers is unfair
  • Main concern is in the section 2 having to do with removal of torts
  • Raymond – What would get us there on this bill?
    • Put a limitation on proximity to the border. Let DPS be the ones to handle this not local law enforcement
    • A sheriff deputy or Constable detains on probable cause and turn it over to DPS
  • Guillen – Does this bill not allow for local police to transfer immigrants to DPS?
    • The way I read the bill it doesn’t, it says the law enforcement officer that makes the initial detention
  • Guillen – Your interpretation is that potentially the law enforcement officer that makes the initial stop is the only one who can take them to a port of entry?
    • Yes

 

Anne Chandler, Texas Immigration Law Council – Against

  • This bill is across the state of Texas
  • Probable cause of arrest will happen quickly
  • Everyone in the community is at their best when they can trust local law enforcement
  • Makes local law enforcement enforce broken immigration law
  • Raymond – Domestic violence case individual usually seeking asylum?
    • Yes, they are looking to turn themselves into law enforcement

 

Charles Reed, Dallas County Commissioner – Against

  • Here to remind that the county jails take the burden
  • We are at 95% capacity
  • Once border county jails fill up it will go to the next county
  • We will have to build a new facility or ship them somewhere else
  • All you have to do is strike “to the extent feasible” they will have to take them to Operation Lone Star Facilities
  • We don’t want to raise property taxes

 

Debra Chen, Self – Against

  • HB 4 criminalizes asylum seekers
  • Creates systemic barriers for families seeking refuge in the USA
  • This would be based on an officer interpretation and act as ICE
  • Racial profiling would be rampant
  • This would hurt people working towards citizenship
  • Costly for counties

 

Elisa Tamayo, El Paso County Government Affairs – Against

  • Cost for counties, El Paso would increase
  • $24 million in additional costs
  • $163 million in infrastructure
  • This isn’t even enough money to cover additional healthcare costs
  • Please consider these costs before hurting the taxpayer

 

Jesus Perales, Texas AFL-CIO – Against

  • Empowering peace officers with deportation will lead to human rights violations
  • This legislation is rooted in racism
  • Neave-Criado – How would this legislation impact labor shortages
    • It could lead to further labor shortages

 

Barbara Hines, Self – Against

  • This bill is unconstitutional
  • Texas can not enforce immigration laws
  • Peace officer have no authority to enforce federal laws
  • Mexico will not accept these immigrants
  • Peace officers aren’t qualified to determine Alienage
  • Turner – Do you see a distinction between this law and Arizona v USA
    • I do not, it intends to copy federal law

 

Alice Yi, Asian Texas for Texas – Against

  • Texas has the 3rd largest Asian population in the USA
  • This will give peace officer to much power to decide who is a citizen and who is not

 

Roberto Lopez, Texas Civil Rights Project – Against

  • It is dangerous to pass HB 4 because it will brutalize immigrant families
  • Legislatures aren’t qualified to make this decision
  • We need to expand processing a port of entry

 

Navid Zanjani, Houston AAPI Table – Against

  • Creates an issue for asylum seekers
  • Is this equal under the law? Are we racial profiling?
  • We want people to not be afraid of peace officers
  • Putting a strain on local budgets
  • It is a show me your papers law

 

Ester Reyes, Children’s Defense Fund Texas – Against

  • The perceived deportation threat has effect on babies; the stress of deportation decreases birth weight
  • HB 4 is rooted in anti-immigrant rhetoric
  • Immigration detention fuel fears of family separation
  • Nothing in this bill will safeguard children from this harm

 

Sofia Vonteer, Self – Against

  • There is already a federal system in place
  • Texas has bigger things to worry about than this like healthcare and quality of life
  • Giving Officers this authority is an audacious maneuver in a state that struggles to keep officer accountable

 

Luis Figueroa, Every Texan – Against

  • We are in opposition to HB 4
  • Every Texan deserves fair immigration process
  • Costs are to much
  • I am concerned DPS will be overwhelmed with processing
  • Federal reforms are the answer
  • We are concerned about legal , cost and inhumane implications

 

Gloria Leal, LULAC – Against

  • The legislation is unconstitutional, this is federal jurisdiction
  • Precedent set in Arizona v. USA
  • Most egregious is the impact on the youth
  • Turner – You think this bill violates the ruling in Arizona v. USA?
    • Yes, the opinion mentions any state laws. The ruling isn’t specifically for Arizona state law
  • Turner – In your opinion creating a law that mirrors federal law doesn’t get around the decision in Arizona v. USA?
    • No, because it is still in federal jurisdiction

 

Niloufar Hafizi, Emgage – Against

  • Bill will encourage racial profiling
  • There is a history of focusing on large counties such as Harris or Dallas Counties
  • Many don’t speak English as their first language leading to suspicion

 

Bob Libal, Self – Against

  • HB 4 would be Operation Lone Star on steroids
  • It would go much further than any legislation before
  • Creates opportunity for abuse

 

David Chincanchan, Workers Defense – Against

  • Huge financial and Moral costs
  • It would strain already limited resources in judicial system
  • It would burden Texas taxpayers
  • This takes away from other more important issues such as healthcare
  • As American and Texans we have a legal obligation to accept asylum seekers
  • HB 4 is a dangerous law and will lead to lawsuits

 

Andrew Hendrickson, ACLU – Against

  • HB 4 violates the Texas Constitution

 

Lindsey Gray, Self – Against

  • This bill will result in family separation & children will end up in foster care
  • Will lead to crisis of unaccompanied children
  • Turner – Elaborate on impact on the foster system
    • A child can’t go into custody and so they get put in a facility or foster care
  • Turner – Does the monitor go with them to the port of entry
    • In certain cases Mexico does not accept families

 

Susan Hayes, Self – Against

  • This bill is bad for business
  • We need workers
  • What if we processed migrants in an orderly fashion

 

Faye Colley, American Immigration Lawyers Association – Against

  • Determination of lawful status is prohibited under federal law
  • Jailing a person impedes asylum seekers

 

Daniela Hernandez, Workers Defense – Against

  • HB 4 is unnecessary
  • Puts all Texans at risk for racial profiling

 

Rep. Spiller closes

  • Caps on the plaintiff side are still in effect. The caps on recovery are still the same
    • I am still willing to look at this specific issue to come up with perfecting language
  • Aliens have the right to apply for asylum. This bill does not prohibit that.
  • The illegal entry, reentry and removal under 13.05 is the current law. It has been the law for 70 years
  • This is a constitutional bill and suggests proponents read Arizona v. USA
  • Turner – If someone is sent back to Mexico and they are denied will they be charged?
    • No they wont be charged, they don’t qualify because they are complying but were denied. If they don’t refuse to return the bill does not apply
  • Neave-Criado – If an officer takes someone to the port of entry, who gives them the money to cross
    • I don’t know and I can get you an answer to that question

 

HB 4 voted out to full House (8-4)