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The Texas Tribune hosted a conversation on public education in Texas on October 18. Discussion topics included vouchers, future funding for teachers, school choice, public and private school accountability, and expectations for the Special Session. A video of this conversation can be found here.

 

This report is intended to give you an overview and highlight the various topics taken up. It is not a verbatim transcript of the discussions but is based upon what was audible or understandable to the observer.

 

Moderated by Becky Fogel, KUT Radio Austin

Corey DiAngelis, American federation of Children

Norma Cantu, Professor of Law UT Austin

John Emerich, Superintendent of Crockett Independent School District

 

Governor Greg Abbot has made it clear that he wants the Texas legislature to a school voucher bill that give parents tax payer money to pay for private school and other educational expenses. What is your stance on the use of public funds for private education?

  • Emerich – My stance is not for it; I do not think it is a good idea
  • Cantu – I am opposed to speedy decisions on complex issues
  • DeAngelis – School choice is the ultimate form of accountability; underperforming private schools shut down and underperforming public schools get more money
  • DeAngelis – We already have public funding going to private institutions for everything else; like Pell grants

 

Each of the programs you have mentioned are federally funded programs aimed at assisting low-income individuals. The bill that has been approved although prioritizing low-income students allows students of any income including students already in private schools to use them. The concern is the vast majority of people using them are folks who can already afford private school. If you support those programs, would you like to see the voucher program in Texas specifically target low-income students or be more universal?

  • DeAngelis – That would be an apt program if we had food stamps supporting everyone regardless of income
  • DeAngelis – Everyone is guaranteed a free public education, funding should follow the student
  • Cantu – We have a section in the Texas Constitution on not funding religious institutions
  • Cantu – Also we have been to the Texas Supreme Court six times on the matter of school funding
  • Cantu – Private and Charter schools were not a part of that case because they opted out of the public school system
  • DeAngelis – Ken Paxton issued a statement saying that education savings accounts would be constitutional under the Texas Constitution
  • DeAngelis – Pell grants can go towards religious colleges, the schools are indirect beneficiaries of the funding
  • Cantu – Paxton can argue all he wants he is not on the Supreme Court

 

Governor Abbot has said it is possible to fully fund public schools while also funding vouchers. Right now is your public school fully funded John?

  • Emerich – Absolutely not, the last increase schools got was in 2019
  • Emerich – Since that time we have had a 19% increase in inflation without increase in funding
  • Emerich – The proposed bill now gives us an extra $75
  • DeAngelis – Public school review has your funding level at $16k per student per year; what number would be adequate for your district?
  • Emerich – The money coming into public schools is highly scrutinized
  • Emerich – To me it is a non-starting issue to have my tax money going to private schools without having the same accountability standards as public schools
  • DeAngelis – What if we were to deregulate public schools and then also have a level playing field

 

  1. What exactly would deregulation look like with public schools?
  • DeAngelis – Not many people like the STAAR test
  • DeAngelis – Instead of testing private schools with the same standardized tests why don’t we all agree to rethink high stakes testing; they did this in Florida
  • Cantu – There are so many government agencies that public school must comply with
  • Cantu – If we want to have safe schools, we can’t just deregulate everything

 

Recent polling found that nearly half of voters in the state support school vouchers and in the same poll it found the school vouchers are not a main priority of republican/democrat voters. Why do you this is something that should be high priority?

  • DeAngelis – Multiple polls say a majority of Texans support school vouchers; 10 states have done this in the last 2 years
  • Cantu – In the first unanimous decision by the Texas Supreme Court, the court suggested to the legislature lets starting merging and closing school districts
  • DeAngelis – They didn’t know what they were talking about and I think someone here doesn’t know what they are talking about
  • DeAngelis – Are Texas public schools actually educating student proficiently and efficiently as stated in the Texas constitution
  • Cantu – We could have more public-school choice

 

John since you are the superintendent of a rural school district, how do you anticipate a voucher program in your district?

  • Emerich – In other states you see micro schools popping up with people wanting to take that money for profit
  • Emerich – Most of those private schools shutdown in 4 years; we saw how online schooling went for kids during covid and this would only increase online schooling
  • DeAngelis – You shouldn’t be worried at all if your schools are doing a good job for kids, you are getting $16k per student to educate them
  • DeAngelis – If public schools are doing well that you should not fear of competition
  • DeAngelis – If you look at public school review only 23% of kids are proficient in math in your district and only 28% are proficient in reading
  • DeAngelis – Shouldn’t those families have an opportunity to go somewhere else?
  • Emerich – Those families do have the choice to go somewhere else
  • DeAngelis – You should be the last one fighting this because you have no private schools in your area
  • DeAngelis – If parents can’t leave and public schools are funded based on attendance or enrollment counts then you’re not going lose any money at all

 

If you look at STAAR scores statewide, 58% were at or above level in reading and 40% for math. What are the things contributing and would help you achieve great scores in your district?

  • Emerich – Teacher pay is the main driver behind it; we cannot compete with the salaries of larger school districts
  • Emerich – That should be the conversation now; we have school choice in Texas
  • Cantu – We have spent decades working together this decision is decisive
  • DeAngelis – School choice is an equalizer; funding the student will allow families more opportunities to go to private schools

 

Norma with your background, what is your perspective on government money going to entities that are not required to protect the rights of students with disabilities?

  • Cantu – If schools accept federal funding, they have to follow the Americans with Disabilities Act while private religious schools can claim an exception
  • Cantu – Public schools pay private schools to take in students with disabilities
  • Cantu – People with disabilities should be at the forefront of this issue
  • DeAngelis – Just because you can check a box doesn’t mean you are meeting the student’s needs; under IDEA you can demand a public school pay for a private school better equipped to handle the student
  • DeAngelis – Public schools can deny the request and you have to take it to a judge; more privileged families are the ones more willing to go through this process
  • DeAngelis – We should expand school choice from IDEA today

 

There are no provisions in SB 1 for students with disabilities. Erin Zwiener shared a story of when she was a child she was considered difficult and a private school rejected her. Should there be protection for students with disabilities in this type of legislation?

  • DeAngelis – I don’t think top-down regulations are the same thing as accountability; the better form of accountability is the bottom up
  • Cantu – There is a finite amount of dollars the school is willing to pay
  • Cantu – They go district to district asking how much property tax their communities are willing to pay
  • Emerich – My district lost amount $1m because of property tax studies

 

John do you feel like your school district is equipped to meet the needs of a variety of students and if you aren’t what are some things that can help you do that?

  • Emerich – We do, but other schools have better success
  • Emerich – In Texas we are not state schools we are local government schools

 

Corey you wrote an opinion piece in 2016 about how legalizing discrimination would improve schools. In this argument what is the benefit to students themselves?

  • DeAngelis – I still stand by the argument, if a school is practicing unhealthy discrimination, I would want to know who they are and defund them
  • DeAngelis – We already have discrimination written into code
  • DeAngelis – Comparing private school tuition to what is spent on each student in public school, I don’t know if we are getting the bang for our buck
  • Cantu – We are not talking about the current budget we are talking about future budgets; we need to close unacceptable gaps

 

Educating supporting kids so they can healthy and happy futures. Do we know if vouchers are good for kids?

  • DeAngelis – Vouchers improve public schools; mathematically funding will increase
  • Cantu – I don’t think you are looking at correct data; Texas’s heart is not in education like it should be
  • Cantu – We don’t have our act together at the state level on preparing teachers and compensating for teacher who have left
  • Emerich – This discussion sound like we can come to some points that we can agree on
  • Emerich – I don’t know anyone who thinks that public school funding is ok right now
  • Emerich – In states where there are vouchers the tuition of private schools has gone up the price of the voucher and I predict that happening in Texas

 

If we have the highest approval rating for rural school right now why is there a need for school vouchers?

  • DeAngelis – Your public school has nothing to fear if everyone loves it; if there are students who don’t love the school, there should be a choice

 

Can we actually afford this? In other states it balloons out of control.

  • Emerich – We cannot afford this; the kicker would be that this is a government program with no regulation so it would most definitely balloon
  • DeAngelis – But we can afford public school funding when they already spend double what the vouchers would be; if anything it saves money

 

  1. In Carson v. Macon, said that you can’t use a law or state constitutional provision to deny parents education options that are religious. After that case a lot of states went universal how in those state did they embrace those programs?
  • DeAngelis – In Florida it doubled the number of private schools in their rural area; supply of private educators will meet the demands
  • DeAngelis – Florida was bottom in the pack of schooling and today they are in the top 5

 

If $16k per student is the average, that’s $320k per classroom and teachers get 20% of that funding. Where does the rest of that funding go? If we $8k left for the student and gave $8k to the school would that cover fixed costs?

  • Emerich – We operating a facility; 85% of most school districts budget is on personnel
  • Cantu – If you don’t pay for education the kids can’t exercise the choice

 

Whole voucher proponents stress that school choice will improve academic outcome for students what data is available on how private schools perform?

  • DeAngelis – There are 17 studies on voucher programs that indicate positive effect of private school choice
  • DeAngelis – In D.C. it is reported voucher indicate high satisfaction levels and safety
  • Emerich – Most private schools focus on college readiness; public schools focus on both college and career readiness

 

One of the reason administrative costs have gone up is to provide for safety and security. Each home in Texas is generating $4k in property taxes. Where is the money coming from to pay for $8k vouchers? What about renters?

  • DeAngelis – You could ask the same thing about the $16k for public schools

 

Is the state data a more accurate reflection of your district budget? What other obstacles are you and other super intendents facing with the funding crunch and how would voucher exacerbate that?

  • Emerich – Our costs have gone up 19% just because of inflation; don’t know any school district that puts less than 80% of their budget towards salaries
  • Emerich – The underlying factor is poverty and the limited opportunity that comes with that
  • DeAngelis – If the money is going to the teachers then why isn’t it? Since 1970 Texas has increased student funding after adjusting for inflation by 166%, teacher salaries have only gone up 10%; maybe competition can be part of the solution